tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post9160740198299651094..comments2024-03-28T12:23:39.665+00:00Comments on Coppola Comment: Grieving for a lost empireFrances Coppolahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09399390283774592713noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-7616253711369669652017-11-15T09:45:25.498+00:002017-11-15T09:45:25.498+00:00What do you think of Metatone's argument that ...What do you think of <a href="https://medium.com/@Metatone/s-yorks-brexit-and-usa-philia-20d90a7790a5" rel="nofollow">Metatone's argument</a> that the real yearning that drove many Leave voters was more for the USA than for the British Empire?<br /><br />"..for many more further down the economic scale, who in S. Yorkshire largely turned out to vote Leave, they might only have been to the USA once in the 80s or just know someone who did, but it confirmed a feeling about the lifestyle, the freedom, the space, the abundance."<br /><br />"So when we look at some of the things Brexit supporters says about 'the country is full' and 'there’s no room' and 'there are always traffic jams' we need to consider that they are aspiring to a lifestyle, to a comparison, with not just 'the way things were' but with the USA of their inner mind."George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-2747732823878687812017-05-09T19:31:08.685+01:002017-05-09T19:31:08.685+01:00I've come across many of that sub-group too an...I've come across many of that sub-group too and given that I think Brexit is absolutely against the interests of the UK, find it hard not to see them as a kind of unwitting fifth column. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-76882880799560252212016-08-04T10:25:33.478+01:002016-08-04T10:25:33.478+01:00Given that it was certainly the older generations ...Given that it was certainly the older generations who voted for Brexit, how much impact did Vote Leave's cynical "<a href="http://www.vox.com/2016/8/2/12345658/brexit-healthcare-nhs" rel="nofollow">leave the EU to get more money to fund the NHS</a>" argument have on the referendum result?George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-45374297944628303252016-07-28T10:54:28.672+01:002016-07-28T10:54:28.672+01:00Ostalgie perhaps, but not the certainty of a job f...Ostalgie perhaps, but not the certainty of a job for life or a gold plated pension but more a sliver of a chance of escaping from poverty/owning or being able to afford to rent a home/finding a school place close to home for their children/getting access to medical care - generally a bit of hope and self-respect......BlueNut2000https://www.blogger.com/profile/02434432632223756370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-84315625656882438862016-07-27T09:24:10.396+01:002016-07-27T09:24:10.396+01:00While empire nostalgia explains why the Tory shire...While empire nostalgia explains why the Tory shires voted Leave, might not working-class Leave voters have been been motivated by something more akin to <i>Ostalgie</i> in Germany?<br /><br />I'm sure that for many working-class East Germans the certainties that came from having a job for life followed by a generous state pension more than made up for the lack of political freedom, access to luxuries or freedom to travel.George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-86564088403091143722016-07-25T11:37:13.138+01:002016-07-25T11:37:13.138+01:00I doubt this was the cause of the Brexit vote, as ...I doubt this was the cause of the Brexit vote, as Leave voters tended to be disproportionately those who weren't affected by Britain's housing problems (either because they still live in social housing, or because they own their homes outright).George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-84540203804266918852016-07-25T08:19:50.888+01:002016-07-25T08:19:50.888+01:00Hi Frances. I've been reading a couple of your...Hi Frances. I've been reading a couple of your old posts regarding housing and property, it's a concern for me as I believe housing supply shortage is negatively affecting the UK's economic future. I also think it may have had an impact on the referendum vote. On several occasions in the news people were recorded saying things along the line of 'there's already too many people in the country'. I'm not saying it's the primary driver but lack of affordable housing could possibly be fueling this attitude. Personally I'm an advocate of increasing housing supply via state sponsored social housing schemes and also relaxation of planning laws, especially in green belt areas. Surely it must be more productive to build housing on farm land rather than pay farmers ''set aside'' money for decades just to leave land as grass fields for example?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04966359152105673269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-22814715616633538022016-07-25T00:13:43.742+01:002016-07-25T00:13:43.742+01:00'Bout time we gave Jerry a taste of British St...'Bout time we gave Jerry a taste of British Steel. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-9959867091961649942016-07-24T16:42:09.396+01:002016-07-24T16:42:09.396+01:00NM, I've pointed this out in a previous post: ...NM, I've pointed this out in a previous post: http://www.coppolacomment.com/2016/06/the-eu-greatest-achievement.html<br /><br />To be fair to Farage, he always opposed enlargement. Frances Coppolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399390283774592713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-90984775563528214452016-07-24T14:43:43.978+01:002016-07-24T14:43:43.978+01:00"what the EU might become without our cultura..."what the EU might become without our cultural influence" ...<br /><br />You mean the particular political culture & political elites that landed Britain in not one but two spectacular foreign political disasters in the past 13 years (Iraq, Brexit)? Pray, what exactly have we benighted continentals to learn from you?NMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-47978443463262371542016-07-24T14:38:43.433+01:002016-07-24T14:38:43.433+01:00Worth pointing out maybe that rapid enlargement wa...Worth pointing out maybe that rapid enlargement was pushed heavily by the UK. NMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-11137521800017685482016-07-24T12:23:13.842+01:002016-07-24T12:23:13.842+01:00Back on the subject of NIMBYism, it seems like it ...Back on the subject of NIMBYism, it seems like it is most intense not in long-term residents of country villages, but in people who moved in more recently in search of a quiet life in a rural idyll.George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-65470351996485850662016-07-24T12:17:53.974+01:002016-07-24T12:17:53.974+01:00Less than 30% of Britons believe that their own lo...Less than 30% of Britons believe that their own localities have an immigration problem, but almost 80% believe the UK as a whole does, which suggests that a lot of anti-immigration sentiment is fomented by the right-wing press rather than by personal experience.<br /><br />Both immigrants and young Brits (especially those with good skills) tend to flock to the big cities in search of work, leaving a disproportionately old and sick population behind in the small towns. The Brexit vote was driven by the older generation – while Ms Coppola's post here points to imperial nostalgia, David Timoney suggested in a <a href="http://fromarsetoelbow.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/phone-home.html" rel="nofollow">post on Tuesday</a> that the anguish at an older generation as their home towns were abandoned by their children may also have been an important factor. In these terms, hostility to immigration is as much about hostility to an economic system which does not provide good local jobs (and thus forced people to move about more in search of work) as it is about xenophobia.George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-71536991468530287052016-07-24T03:19:43.967+01:002016-07-24T03:19:43.967+01:00Thank you, Frances, for this excellent article.
M...Thank you, Frances, for this excellent article.<br /><br />My Gran, who lived through WW2, is viciously anti-German. She point-blank refuses to be served by Germans: at supermarkets or cafes, social services or hospitals. Her children inherited this view, if quieter. They're all anti-EU, pro-death penalty.<br /><br />The other side of my family are Russian. They approached the referendum with ambivalence. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-12839498858796806822016-07-24T03:10:44.538+01:002016-07-24T03:10:44.538+01:00George, I fear you're taking a dishonest argum...George, I fear you're taking a dishonest argument at face value. Large cities tend to be more pro-immigrant than less dense conurbations. When people exclaim "Britain's full!", they're really saying - at best - "I can't get appointments at my GP" (or similar). At worst, it's "Too many browns, not enough white English". Nout to do with actual boots on pavements.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-71690638075728446932016-07-23T21:51:46.947+01:002016-07-23T21:51:46.947+01:00I doubt it -- I think the difference is just that ...I doubt it -- I think the difference is just that the French tend to be far more generous than the British in offering compensation for those whose property is taken for infrastructure developments like this.<br /><br />Also, the English tend to be far more NIMBYish in general -- probably because we have 413 people per square kilometre while France has only 118 people per square kilometre.<br /><br />Probably also why we have so much anti-immigrant sentiment here in Britain too, as it is easier for such agitators to make the claim that England is a grossly overpopulated country.George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-27132336027289471072016-07-23T17:20:03.152+01:002016-07-23T17:20:03.152+01:00When the Eurostar was built, english villages prot...When the Eurostar was built, english villages protested when they learned they would be on the path. French villages protested when they learned they would't be. Was there some premonition in that?Jacques René Giguèrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08044522160459914143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-67208972408721924162016-07-23T07:28:12.679+01:002016-07-23T07:28:12.679+01:00If we were to change "we didn't fight 2 w...If we were to change "we didn't fight 2 wars to be run by the Germans" to:<br /><br />"We didn't fight 2 wars to liberate Europe only to see many of these nation states be re-inslaved thanks to a daft single currency project that forces uncompetitive nation states forced into a fiscal straitjacket from which they can never escape". <br /><br />Aside from the fact that most average joes won't have a clue what that means or how pretentious it might sound it's way easier to say the former. <br />BlueNut2000https://www.blogger.com/profile/02434432632223756370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-44811645577278506832016-07-23T07:09:34.022+01:002016-07-23T07:09:34.022+01:00Carolina, you make some good points and i believe ...Carolina, you make some good points and i believe the normally excellent Frances is certainly guilty of over-simplifying this in terms of her empire nostalgia characterisation - that there are so many Brexiteers out there that believe we can be "great again". <br /><br />However, you yourself might also be failing to understand that the fallout from WW2 is very real even today and that an initial distrust of the Germans has over time relaxed and morphed into a more milder wariness as we have seen the Germans transform into a more progressive and successful country (and less war mongering country than sadly the UK). Yes, in many ways we have fallen behind them. <br /><br />So why haven't the British been able to fully move on from this "German obsession"?! The answer is tragic and of epic Shakespearean proportions. When the single currency was created helmet kohl understood perfectly from the outset that the economic viability/sustainability of the currency was only possible if further down the road there was political and fiscal union. He and the other architects knew this to be a fact carved in stone. They also knew that over time "periphery" nations would become uncompetitive and require fiscal transfers. They also knew how difficult it would be for these nations to escape their debt burdens or leave the single currency as their debt burdens would be denominated in euros. But they must also have known how difficult it would be in the future to secure any kind of democratic mandate to allow closer integration. In their arrogance they believed future governments would be able to force through this political integration. Alas, we now know it to be impossible and just a pipe dream - too late!!<br /><br />So, Germany is now "stuck" in a dreadful trap whereby it can't/won't pursue further integration and as a result has no choice but to be the "villain" that meters out harsh austerity to the periphery. The Germans are also reluctant to provide stimulus because of their historical paranoia of hyperinflation. This whole mess is less the fault of Merkel and more the fault of the founding fathers. The British "working class and/or older generation" see this "bad German behaviour" and the declining trajectory of the euro and eu and combined with a general "wariness"(not xenophobia) of the Germans tipped their decision to leave. It's tragic because the current German administration come out of this looking bad and it fosters this general anti-German antipathy. Ironically, Frances neighbours may have reached the right conclusion but for the wrong reasons. They rail against the current German hegemony when it was Helmut Kohl and the founding fathers that created the current system which is a machine that over time erodes democracy and transfers wealth across nation states. BlueNut2000https://www.blogger.com/profile/02434432632223756370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-45244511171184436882016-07-22T19:38:59.007+01:002016-07-22T19:38:59.007+01:00I was born during WWII and I am a Remainer. I agre...I was born during WWII and I am a Remainer. I agree with this analysis, and I think our leaving the EU precipitates the end of the imperial story-that is to say, independence for Wales & Scotland, and the reunion of Ireland. Then each part of the UK will have given up empire, especially England. This I welcome. Each country, England particularly, has to find its right place as a small country in the world, each having plenty to offer when properly developed. I am not advocating nationalism, which is an ugly aspect of belonging. Therefore I would have preferred we all stayed in the EU in order to at least promote the ideas of co-operation, peace and culture, which we should now start workig hard to do without the benefit of EU structure. I think leaving the EU is part of a worldwide moveemnt of drastic change, a shifting of tectonic plates, which we have to make positive and not hell, poverty and destruction for the poorer people of the world. Younger generations, I am sorry some of us deserted you, but I rely on you to make soemthing out of this chaos.<br />TLThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11356841311241428504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-56950575736406463612016-07-22T14:16:25.341+01:002016-07-22T14:16:25.341+01:00I find the whole idea that a significant number of...I find the whole idea that a significant number of people pine for the glory days of the British Empire totally unrealistic. I've never come across anyone who suffers from that illusion.Ralph Musgravehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09443857766263185665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-51160794701945863752016-07-22T14:09:08.629+01:002016-07-22T14:09:08.629+01:00I think you're onto something about the role o...I think you're onto something about the role of Germanophobia in the Leave vote -- my mother knew that I was a strong Remainer (perhaps because my employer's most important client is Audi, although my discovery that most Brexiteers <i>weren't</i> protectionists also helped swing it) but still felt compelled to vote Leave in the end.<br /><br />I suspect she felt like voting Remain would have been a betrayal of her own mother (rabidly anti-German as a result of encountering SS POWs while working as a nurse in London). If my grandmother had still been alive and had read my copy of Stuart Slade's <a href="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Big-One-Stuart-Slade/dp/1430304952" rel="nofollow">The Big One</a>, she'd probably regard it as something of a utopia (minus Britain spending five years under Nazi occupation of course).George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-32679661127808973642016-07-22T10:26:50.713+01:002016-07-22T10:26:50.713+01:00Only so many of the people who voted OUT did not k...Only so many of the people who voted OUT did not know the first thing about the EU, its structure and workings. They just 'wanted their country back' and that country was Disneyland or Narnia. I absolutely agree with Frances' analysis: further proof is how scaringly effective were UKIP's racist posters or the spike in xenophobic and/or racist attacks we are witnessing, sadly predictably, now.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10340715947420238325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-89489850689381011922016-07-22T10:18:30.394+01:002016-07-22T10:18:30.394+01:00Some more anecdotal evidence: Many of the leave vo...Some more anecdotal evidence: Many of the leave voters I know have this "we didn't fight two wars to be run by the Germans" mentality. Immigration was the bigger issue but sovereignty and independence (often referred to as "we used to run the world") was an important secondary issue. John Kinghamhttp://www.ukvalueinvestor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-49428297794227894832016-07-22T10:03:58.832+01:002016-07-22T10:03:58.832+01:00Oh no Coppola, I don't assume this [silly] ide...Oh no Coppola, I don't assume this [silly] identity Brexit voters = British working class. You’re right, it is indeed simplistic and that's why I used the term ‘British working class’ between brackets. The idea of a British working class is complicate. In fact, it makes me think: if (only if) we could possibly talk about a ‘British working class’, would this be the same than the working class in Britain? I guess not. Anyways, yes age was undeniably a great factor -- I saw the data. I guess my point is: even when we look at the data by age, income, race, foreign-born population and so on, couldn't we consider the empire nostalgia in terms of the economic and social losses that happened in the last 3-4 decades? Maybe this was a more relevant determining factor that's all...more than an anti-German empire sentiment or a political hegemony nostalgia. If yes, so the no-go area you mentioned has been somehow debated, as these losses are directly connected with the legacy of World War II and the loss of the British Empire. And for the record, no, I don't think at all that this was a rebellion of the 'British working class' (no way!), but I don't think that voters from poor areas – areas deeply affected by globalisation and the Tories government – are simply xenophobic either (I know you never ever said that). I'm just trying to say that different sentiments in this referendum were easily co-opted and channeled to the Leave side given the long dismantlement of the welfare state and sluggish growth (and the European refugee crisis of course). But these sentiments on their own wouldn't have done much damage. Would’ve the same outcome been reached in a different historical moment? A moment of economic prosperity, for example!? I'm not so sure. So I do not think that there is a taboo or white elephant in the room. At least not in the sense – and with the emphasis – you put it. <br />– and, just in case you are wondering, I do not agreed with the Leftexit argument in its entirety either. Remain was definitely the way to go. <br />Carolina Alveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07198333101600905188noreply@blogger.com