tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post3373046121894509444..comments2024-03-28T12:23:39.665+00:00Comments on Coppola Comment: Europe's ShameFrances Coppolahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09399390283774592713noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-40750617043647023732016-01-27T02:06:55.269+00:002016-01-27T02:06:55.269+00:00Interesting discussion, but Muslim isn't a rac...Interesting discussion, but Muslim isn't a race anymore than Catholic is. I've seen a couple of Europeans pushing this equivalency, but find it baffling. Here (Michigan) one meets Muslims of various races and countries of origin; it would be considered insulting to treat them as a race in and of themselves. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14120047386026006106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-44019610002965572102015-09-01T15:50:21.270+01:002015-09-01T15:50:21.270+01:00Amazing how with careful selection of quotes you c...Amazing how with careful selection of quotes you can make it look as if I said something that I did not. The paragraph from which you quote continues thus:<br /><br />"Accommodating them could go some way towards solving Europe's demographic problems - falling birth rates and a growing proportion of elderly. But because EU policies prioritise balancing government budgets ahead of ending the scourge of unemployment, European countries - with the notable exceptions of Germany and Sweden - dare not accept migrants for fear of making the unemployment problem worse. We are not only behaving inhumanely towards people both outside and inside the EU, we are squandering the human capital on which our future prosperity depends. This is utter insanity."<br /><br />In other words, importing workers will make unemployment worse in those countries that already have elevated unemployment and poor economic growth.<br /><br />A moral response would acknowledge that the inadequate response of many countries (not just in the EU) stems from existing domestic economic problems, and do something to relieve not only the desperate plight of refugees but also high unemployment, economic depression and poverty among residents of those countries. Frances Coppolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399390283774592713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-18510019600826926822015-09-01T13:02:48.257+01:002015-09-01T13:02:48.257+01:00Frances Coppola said:
"But the inhumanity s...Frances Coppola said: <br /><br />"But the inhumanity shown to these refugees has its origin in the inhumanity displayed to citizens of European countries. Unemployment in the EU is over 10% despite low rates in countries such as Germany and the UK. Youth unemployment is more than double that. These migrants are predominantly young, skilled people, many with children. "<br /><br />European unemployment will not be solved by importing workers.<br /><br />It is no moral high ground to call for the exploitation of refugees for nakedly political and claimed economic ends and dress it up as humanitarian action. Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-44368731644460866012015-08-31T15:39:15.049+01:002015-08-31T15:39:15.049+01:00One factual error I just noticed, Frances -- and i...One factual error I just noticed, Frances -- and it derives largely from the disinformation and propaganda that the intolerant and xenophobic Right are disseminating. This is that there is no international rule on applying for humanitarian protection in the first "safe country" that is reached. This nonsense is something invented by EU countries, in order to try to reject genuine asylum applications. Most national courts will not tolerate it, but some low-level committees and tribunals under the control of politicians may do so. This thinking is also present in the original Dublin Convention of 1990 -- which has been partially suspended by court decisions (including the CJEU) -- and at last has been suspended by the German government in the case of Syrians. The UK, Netherlands and most of Eastern Europe continue to deny humanitarian principles and the intent of the 1951 Convention.<br /><br />For a useful explanation of the UN Convention, you can read this piece by Goodwin-Gill http://legal.un.org/avl/ha/prsr/prsr.htmlGuest(xenos)http://www.mmo.grnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-60285493156485474782015-08-31T12:52:31.072+01:002015-08-31T12:52:31.072+01:00Denying entry to refugees on the grounds that they...Denying entry to refugees on the grounds that they are Muslim does. Frances Coppolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399390283774592713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-13656485628736067032015-08-31T12:51:11.226+01:002015-08-31T12:51:11.226+01:00Opposing open borders does not make you racist.Opposing open borders does not make you racist.Randomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04445772572707818311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-49311325386415132822015-08-31T12:48:42.072+01:002015-08-31T12:48:42.072+01:00Opposing open borders does not make you racist.Opposing open borders does not make you racist.Randomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04445772572707818311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-22599812598494266572015-08-31T12:44:36.451+01:002015-08-31T12:44:36.451+01:00"The migrants in Calais are mostly young men ..."The migrants in Calais are mostly young men of non-European origin, made up of a mix of refugees, asylum seekers and economic migrants from Darfur, Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Eritrea and other troubled areas of the world. There are also some women and children. The mix of nationalities has changed over time with Afghans being the largest group initially but by 2014 more people seen from the Horn of Africa and Sudan.[8] They mostly seek to enter the British labour market to work illegally rather than claim asylum in France,[2][3] though the number claiming asylum has risen since the procedures were revised in 2014.[1]<br />Many of the migrants have paid people smugglers to get them to Calais.[2] One migrant from Egypt, a politics graduate, told The Guardian that he "paid $3,000 to leave Egypt, risked my life on a boat to Italy spending days at sea" and that in one month he had tried 20 times to reach England. Another, an Eritrean woman with a one-year-old child, had paid €2,500, and her husband the same, to sail to Italy but her husband had drowned during the journey.[1] Migrants also risk their lives when they try to climb aboard or travel on lorries, sometimes falling off and breaking bones or dying in accidents or en route. "Randomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04445772572707818311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-33059077112061028312015-08-31T00:07:29.425+01:002015-08-31T00:07:29.425+01:00Frances: as an expert with 25 years of published r...Frances: as an expert with 25 years of published research in the matter, I can assure you that you are correct. The comments made by some people here are just nonsense, personal opinions without a basis in either reality or scientific studies.<br /><br />As for Collier's book "Exodus", I do not recommend it. He has the distinction of bringing a competent mind to matters of which he knows rather little: the result is interesting, but mostly inappropriate. He would have benefited from reading at least some of the mainstream literature on the matter -- and preferably the more reliable expert studies (as opposed to generalised academic prognostications).Guest(xenos)http://www.mmo.grnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-10915208258954234462015-08-30T23:46:46.268+01:002015-08-30T23:46:46.268+01:00I do not agree with you. Sorry.
I will add Exodu...I do not agree with you. Sorry. <br /><br />I will add Exodus to my (extensive) list of books that people have told me I must read. Frances Coppolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399390283774592713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-51799415533621835162015-08-30T22:37:11.234+01:002015-08-30T22:37:11.234+01:00Europe should certainly help people who fleeing th...Europe should certainly help people who fleeing the war and not just Europe - there are many people to accommodate and there will be more. I hope all countries in the world who have resources should help. Latin America was great in helping refugees duding WWII, could it help this time? And this time richer Asian countries should chip in - China, Saudi Arabia, Emirates, India, Pakistan, South Korea, Malasia, Indonesia, Philippines, Australia. Some of these countries have a lot of infrastructure for muslim refugees that Europe and Latin America lack. No person who's very life is endangered should be left without help. The world is large and rich. This is a real challenge for UN, not just for EC - time to mobilize the whole world. Sitting, doing nothing and just telling Europe to help is a shame for UM!Peter B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07299934125605154985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-59062928848766508402015-08-30T21:41:55.997+01:002015-08-30T21:41:55.997+01:00A interesting book about the role of reproduction ...A interesting book about the role of reproduction in the proto capitalist world is Silvia Federicis Caliban and the Witch<br /><br />Now I disagree with Federici on many levels but it shows how Feminists /Marxists are now integrating distribution memes into the previously materialist world view of marxists. <br /><br />The girl is of course a super capitalist as she wants to introduce wages inside the family unit rather then a commons dividend but at least it's some sort of progression.<br />For some reason she cannot see the irony of her position.<br /><br />The current outsourcing of reproduction is of course a core capitalist policy today.<br /><br />To call people racists when all they want to do is protect the home hearth and village from capitalist scouring of the shire programmes is beyond a joke.<br />In the past the ancient and medival village did not put a price on everything.<br />The Capitalist elite have control of almost everything but yet want more.<br />They want that last sacred Hawthorn tree to be felled<br />To destroy even the memory of the faries.<br />The Dork of Corkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03352247603806622458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-80772235961998350502015-08-30T19:41:23.666+01:002015-08-30T19:41:23.666+01:00"to which you have no desire to respond in an..."to which you have no desire to respond in any way. You regard it as "someone else's problem". Let's hope you are never in need of help yourself."<br /><br />That is an appalling distortion of my expressed views. Please get a grip of your emotions - and your 'ad hominems'. I have every desire to respond to this terrible humanitarian disaster - just NOT in the ways you favour, Frances. Just because I do not follow your particular prescription does not mean I am a bad person!<br /><br />In response to your points:<br /><br />1. Assimilating anything other than a small number of migrants has huge extra costs. Overall, it is cheaper and more humane to follow Professor Collier's recommendations. (He is no right-winger, and a humane and thoughtful man - himself descended from immigrants. Please do read 'Exodus'.)<br /><br />2. With the immigrants we have got, the UK birth rate is above replacement level already and the UK population is projected to grow. So we simply don't need any more people --- particularly, since you mentioned skills, third-world people.<br /><br />3. "The UK is an integrated economy, so references to "England" are meaningless." Hardly "meaningless", given the extent of devolution. And the destination of the vast majority of immigrants is England - not the Highlands or Snowdonia. The fact is that the UK is the most densely populated country in the G7, apart from Japan. In practical terms, the UK is full.<br /><br />4. Yes, there have always been terrorists and religious conflict in the UK. The point is that increased immigration, leading to increased 'diversity', will most probably increase terrorism and religious conflict. And importing more adherents of the politico-religious belief system known as Islam will only increase the number of homophobes and misogynists in the UK electorate. Believe me, these immigrants will not become Guardian readers any time soon!<br /><br />5. In general, you seem to be working with the 'airport lounge' concept of a nation: whoever arrives is part of it. I go with the OED: 'a nation is a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory'. I want to preserve my nation and its fine culture, and I'm happy to welcome some immigrants (particularly from Commonwealth countries, with whom we have historical and cultural ties), but there must be limits. Moreover, Syria isn't the UK's problem, though we must play our part financially in helping those who suffer.Theophrastusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-85342290982430357032015-08-30T18:40:33.355+01:002015-08-30T18:40:33.355+01:001. Destroying the lives and prospects of entire ge...1. Destroying the lives and prospects of entire generations by holding them in refugee camps is morally wrong. <br /><br />2. If the West can afford the investment in those countries to enable them to support refugees, it can afford to accept and assimilate the refugees. <br /><br />3. Importing young people absolutely is the solution to an ageing population. It reduces the dependency ratio. Also, the birth rate is higher among immigrants, which means that there will be a greater supply of young people in future. If the consequence of immigration is that the proportion of elderly in the population drops long-term, this is a net benefit to the economy. <br /><br />4. The UK is an integrated economy, so references to "England" are meaningless. There is no reason to "put aside" more densely populated places on grounds that they are smaller. The UK is a rich country, with low unemployment. It can afford to take refugees and it has the space to do so. <br /><br />5. The UK has been breeding terrorists and has a long history of religious conflict. It already has its fair share of homophobes and misogynists and is notably xenophobic. I for one would regard immigration as a good thing if it helped to shift dysfunctional cultural attitudes and entrenched racist xenophobia. Working immigrants of course contribute to the funding of public services, including transport networks. <br /><br />But all of this is irrelevant. The real issue is that there is a major humanitarian crisis in the Middle East to which you have no desire to respond in any way. You regard it as "someone else's problem". Let's hope you are never in need of help yourself. I for one would think twice before offering it. Frances Coppolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399390283774592713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-62801427072108388852015-08-30T15:33:04.349+01:002015-08-30T15:33:04.349+01:00I agree that the UK and other countries should res...I agree that the UK and other countries should respond to these humanitarian crises, and generously: we differ on how to respond. So in response to your points:<br /><br />1. Sooner or later, the war in Syria will end; and there is a lot of ruin in a nation. Most genuine refugees want to return to their homeland, if they can. And if/when they can, they should be encouraged to do so.<br /><br />2. With significant investment from the West, those countries could take more Syrians. And when the war ceases, the West will have to help rebuild Syria, as will Syria's neighbours.<br /><br />3. I think you are over-estimating the skills base among Syrian migrants. In any event, importing young people is not the answer to an ageing population, because they in turn grow old and dependent and/or bring their old and dependent with them. (The answers to an ageing population include more automation, longer working lives, improvements in gerontological medicine...but that's a another matter altogether.)<br /><br />4. The UK is not the most densely populated country in Europe, but it is already very densely populated. Putting aside places like San Marino, Jersey and Malta, in Europe only Belgium and the Netherlands have a higher population density than the UK, making the UK the most densely populated major economy in Europe. And England alone is the most densely populated country in Europe - with a density nearly twice that of Germany and quadruple that of France. This is not a "nationalist myth". <br /><br />5. You focus on the perceived advantages that Syrian and other migrants might bring - eg skills and youth - but you forget the possible disadvantages - eg disease, terrorism, religious conflict, homophobia, misogyny, cultural change, increased demand for public services, congestion....and the increasing 'pull' factor that established immigrant communities exert on those remaining overseas.Theophrastusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-53685942950707783392015-08-30T15:22:34.567+01:002015-08-30T15:22:34.567+01:00The right wing claims that you are making are in b...The right wing claims that you are making are in blatant denial of basic facts. First, the migration flows of the world -- and especially refugee flows -- are not obviously affected by policies to exclude them. Such policies are shown historically to have two principal effects: (a) diversion of migration routes and sometimes to nearby countries, but no clear reduction in total flows; and (b) an increase in the deaths and suffering of such migrants -- something totally inhumane when we are talking about refugees and families with children. Since the mid 1980s the EU (and the UK in particular) have tried to stop legitimate refugees from reaching our countries, with policy instruments like visa restrictions and criminal penalties for smuggling (even inadvertently) by airlines, commercial trucks etc. This was a cynical and deliberate policy to block refugee arrivals and cast all movements not pre-authorised by the state as "illegal migration" -- forcing refugees to arrive as spontaneous asylum-seekers crossing borders without permission.<br /><br />Secondly, the evidence is very clear that the Syrian refugees are predominantly educated and middle class people, who are able to work and offer a lot to wherever they reside. The proportion of Africans with university education is also high -- depending on their origins -- but often their educational profile is better than the average for most EU countries' native populations.<br /><br />Your anti-islamic ranting is all that we can expect from right wing commentators. People fleeing Islamic extremism are the people we should be supporting, yet you appear not to have a rational approach. Indeed, most of the problems of the MENA region are historically derived from a self-centred interference in the region by North America and Europe: it is time to accept responsibility for our selfish and greedy behaviour, and show some humanity for once. It is sadly missing -- not least with the current despiccable government of the UK.Guest(xenos)http://www.mmo.grnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-72144866861846133692015-08-30T13:28:30.516+01:002015-08-30T13:28:30.516+01:00I'm afraid I fundamentally disagree, for sever...I'm afraid I fundamentally disagree, for several reasons. <br /><br />- The war in Syria has now been going for 5 years and there is no end in sight. How long would it be before these people could safely return home? And what makes you think that what they would return to could in any way be described as "home"? Their homes are flattened and their country is wrecked. Syria's GDP collapse in the last 5 years is twice that of Greece.<br /><br />- The countries nearby already have millions of refugees. There are far more refugees in Egypt, Turkey and Lebanon than there are anywhere in Europe. The ones coming to Europe are the better off who can afford the crossing.<br /><br />- Europe has ageing populations. These people are young and often highly skilled. We need them. This is a shocking waste of human capital. So is high unemployment in southern European countries, of course: but that is a crisis of our own making. It is not an excuse for failing to respond to a humanitarian crisis.<br /><br />- The UK is not the most densely populated place in Europe, and doesn't make it into the top 50 most densely populated places worldwide. Overpopulation is a nationalist myth. Frances Coppolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399390283774592713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-20704159063261927052015-08-30T10:22:07.081+01:002015-08-30T10:22:07.081+01:00It is sickening; but that does not mean it is nece...It is sickening; but that does not mean it is necessary or desirable for the EU (and particularly the densely populated UK) to accommodate these people. Paul Collier, in his masterly book 'Exodus', suggests large holding camps near war zones and failed states where migrants can have asylum applications processed and refugees can wait safely (and even work) until it is safe to return home.Theophrastusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-76329389245683097622015-08-30T05:09:32.422+01:002015-08-30T05:09:32.422+01:00Thank you Frances. I fully agree. It sad to watc...Thank you Frances. I fully agree. It sad to watch the downright racist sentiment in Europe right now.Lars Christensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08409946182659964026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-63779708176724962962015-08-29T16:25:49.888+01:002015-08-29T16:25:49.888+01:00Murphy’s understanding on how public sector projec...Murphy’s understanding on how public sector projects work is pretty naïve.<br /><br />This is an exchange I had with him over the past couple of days on ‘shovel ready projects’. He seems to think public sector projects can commence immediately.<br /><br />http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2015/08/26/shovel-ready/#comment-area<br /><br />He says they’re going for home insulation projects.<br /><br />He first points out to the ‘success’ of the Australian home insulation projects as inspiration.<br /><br />When I point out we use the Australian experience as a warning (100+ house fires, deaths, allegations of corruption, a former pop star minister demoted by his PM), he says HE learns from mistakes and we don’t!<br /><br />When I point out there have already been home insulation schemes, he says ‘nonsense’ and I’m banned. <br /><br />The man is quite mad. <br />Adrian Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-20183470938415105342015-08-28T23:29:20.878+01:002015-08-28T23:29:20.878+01:00Badly written perhaps but I am afraid it's all...Badly written perhaps but I am afraid it's all true.<br />The refugee crisis is being ochestrated by the money monopoly.<br />It was core British /French policy to dismantle the Libyan state which functioned as a effective buffer state given its relative high standard of living<br />prior to the chaos.<br />So just to repeat some people within the inner state decided to turn the African med coast into a lawless place<br />The question is why<br />I reckon I have a plausible answer to this strange turn of events<br /><br />The Dork of Corkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03352247603806622458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-754066618925950712015-08-28T23:19:01.910+01:002015-08-28T23:19:01.910+01:00Badly written perhaps but I am afraid it's all...Badly written perhaps but I am afraid it's all true.<br />The refugee crisis is being ochestrated by the money monopoly.<br />It was core British /French policy to dismantle the Libyan state which functioned as a effective buffer state given its relative high standard of living<br />prior to the chaos.<br />So just to repeat some people within the inner state decided to turn the African med coast into a lawless place<br />The question is why<br />I reckon I have a plausible answer to this strange turn of events<br /><br />The Dork of Corkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03352247603806622458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-80770512268145301752015-08-28T15:29:19.269+01:002015-08-28T15:29:19.269+01:00You really do spout a lot of utter drivel. This ba...You really do spout a lot of utter drivel. This badly written pseudo-intellectual psychobabble contributes nothing meaningful to any debate, certainly not to this one about a refugee crisis.stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08273406344121145613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-29281719746088566272015-08-28T15:08:01.873+01:002015-08-28T15:08:01.873+01:00UK coal consumption dropped by -21.5% last year, y...UK coal consumption dropped by -21.5% last year, yes folks in one year<br />From 37.1mtoe to 29.mtoe, indeed it seemed to mirror Ukraines war time austerity drop of -20.2% in 2014 ( Ukraine has similar consumption Levels)<br />You could make the argument that the transformation losses in creating electricity are wasteful but why is not cheap coal returning to the home heating market? Why it's of course EU and financial oligarchy policy to sustain high prices and so called green laws so as to sustain high prices for basic goods......this is a wartime blockade like event......and you are asking countries to absorb yet more wage roboten!!!!!!!!! The Dork of Corkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03352247603806622458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-32733205238114715832015-08-28T13:41:38.489+01:002015-08-28T13:41:38.489+01:00It is sickening. It is sickening. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03437318728978351230noreply@blogger.com