tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post4851559296827389730..comments2024-03-28T12:23:39.665+00:00Comments on Coppola Comment: The silent gender divide Frances Coppolahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09399390283774592713noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-19197341121027433652016-07-20T09:26:29.886+01:002016-07-20T09:26:29.886+01:00This serves to confirm my long-held preference to ...This serves to confirm my long-held preference to hire women in traditionally male disciplines, such as medicine, law and technology. In general, I've found them to be smarter, more qualified and harder working than their male counterparts. I prefer female doctors, dentists. lawyers, etc. for this very reason. I even used to call a female plumber for home repairs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-17822596381944761622016-07-19T12:57:18.875+01:002016-07-19T12:57:18.875+01:00Thank you for that, it has clarified my thoughts a...Thank you for that, it has clarified my thoughts and brought them back on track.RPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17695303458973909485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-41341989140936023912016-07-19T12:27:55.072+01:002016-07-19T12:27:55.072+01:00I think you are on to something here, Miguel.
Al...I think you are on to something here, Miguel. <br /><br />Also there is the status question: it is easier to encourage girls to aspire to (higher-status) "men's jobs" than it is to encourage boys to aspire to (lower-status) "women's work". Frances Coppolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399390283774592713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-15038196292404257852016-07-19T12:26:05.941+01:002016-07-19T12:26:05.941+01:00I would venture to suggest that the "average ...I would venture to suggest that the "average man" does not exhibit empathy or want to spend time holding hands and reassuring because he has never been expected to. It is entirely nurture in my view. <br /><br />I agree this is not easy to change, but we expect parents to change their nurturing of girls to meet society's desire for girls to step into roles traditionally associated with men. Why should we not expect them to change their nurturing of boys, too?<br /><br />I do not believe that robots will ever substitute for human personal contact. Frances Coppolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399390283774592713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-63298730887119821762016-07-19T12:18:08.836+01:002016-07-19T12:18:08.836+01:00«However it seems to me that a decade or two of wi...«However it seems to me that a decade or two of wishful thinking is not going to overcome millions of years of evolution putting female mammals in the "caring mode" and male mammals in the "solving the getting food problem mode".»<br /><br />In almost all mammals, both males and females take care of the "getting food problem" (besides humans in some historical moments, I confess that I don't know about any mammal where females don't get food; if anything, in some animals like lions females contribute more to hunting than males).<br /><br />But perhaps we have here the explanation because is more common to say "we need more women in STEM" than "we need more men in care areas": in nature both females and males find food, but usually only females take care of the newborn; then, seems more intuitive the idea of women working in stereotypical "man's jobs" than the opposite (like is also more common, I think, to see little girls playing stereotypical boy's games than the opposite).Miguel Madeirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07382939732567489809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-80875487753991061962016-07-19T11:14:48.048+01:002016-07-19T11:14:48.048+01:00Thanks for replying.
The duties of looking after ...Thanks for replying.<br /><br />The duties of looking after young kids are very similar to looking after sick, disabled and elderly people, and women do seem to have more empathy than males. So it sort of "feels natural" that women would step into this role.<br /><br />We are now in the nature versus nurture discussion, and the relative importance of instinct versus all the other forces that come into play after birth.<br /><br />Are men as capable of caring as women? Physically in terms of mechanically carrying out the duties, yes, definitely. Would they exhibit the same empathy and be prepared to spend time holding hands and reassuring, clearly an essential function of good care? Hmmmm, I am not so sure the average man is going to perform very well at that.<br /><br />Does this come from instinct or from experiences after birth? If the first, then the battle is lost. If the second, then the role model behaviour of parents would have to change dramatically.<br /><br />Relabeling is not going to be easy and will not change things for a long time.<br /><br />However, I do believe that we do not even need to have the discussion. In less than a few decades, certainly way faster than society can be changed, we will have friendly "personal robots" able to talk, encourage and reassure tirelessly 24/7. This is the future.<br /><br />And based on my subjective assessment of the utterly banal conversations that most people have, this could even be done now.<br /><br />"What's the weather doing today?"<br /><br /><br /><br />(The "did not graduate" led me to falsely believe they failed.)<br />RPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17695303458973909485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-49482538645342605342016-07-19T09:17:38.875+01:002016-07-19T09:17:38.875+01:00I'm surprised you have missed all the talk abo...I'm surprised you have missed all the talk about lack of girls in STEM subjects. As you say, maybe it's confirmation bias on your part. <br /><br />Evolution didn't put women into the role of caring for the sick, the disabled and the elderly - which is what people working in H&SC do, mostly. All evolution requires women to care for is unweaned infants. The rest comes from society. <br /><br />Evolution also doesn't put men in the role of providing food. In many societies, women grow the crops. Men's job is protection, not producing. <br /><br />This perhaps answers your question "why do we still assume beng a soldier is a man's job?" But it does not answer mine. The choices of girls and boys in developed countries are still coloured by social expectations from a bygone age. We need carers, and men are as capable of caring as women. It is society that labels certain jobs as "women's work". This must change.<br /><br />I do not know why those young men dropped out of that particular course. But many of them may simply have changed horses. <br /><br /><br /><br />Frances Coppolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399390283774592713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-31156012138353347432016-07-19T08:20:10.207+01:002016-07-19T08:20:10.207+01:00Almost but not quite. Most of our ancestors' ...Almost but not quite. Most of our ancestors' subsistence was from gathering not hunting. Both sexes are adapted to problem solving. Cooking meat created a different set of physiological changes. Women are on ave more interested in people. Men are on ave more competitive. (Findings by Helena Cronin and colleagues). Men more likely to try and fail (hence the silly fail culture of Silicon Valley). Darwin awards not won by many women. What to do? Nothing. It does get lonely in the IT Department sometimes. For female company I walk ten feet to the Marketing Department. You can bet that pay would be better if more men were nurses, carers and social workers. As men catch up in longevity, they might want to think about that when they need someone to take care of them.Lu Pearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02438387476749006123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-64945405868131824022016-07-19T05:23:26.319+01:002016-07-19T05:23:26.319+01:00Either there is a bit of "confirmation bias&q...Either there is a bit of "confirmation bias" or I have the opposite tendency because I do not see "endless talk encouraging girls into STEM".<br /><br />However it seems to me that a decade or two of wishful thinking is not going to overcome millions of years of evolution putting female mammals in the "caring mode" and male mammals in the "solving the getting food problem mode".<br /><br />Fortunately we are not all "equal", we are all different. Some men put stamps into albums and some men beat each other up in martial arts.<br /><br />To<br /><br />"Why do we still assume that caring is a woman's job?"<br /><br />I could answer<br /><br />"Why do we still assume that being a soldier is man's job?"<br /><br />Maybe it is because of a natural tendency to do what we want to do? Or should we have an army that is 50% female?<br /><br /><br />For me the most important statement in the whole article was "nearly half the boys did not graduate". This is a tragic waste of time and money. Why did it happen and what is being done to stop it?RPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17695303458973909485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-90760431318969936392016-07-18T23:19:39.468+01:002016-07-18T23:19:39.468+01:00Simple - the 'equality' police only ever l...Simple - the 'equality' police only ever look at areas where women are under-represented, and demand 'equality' there, never areas where men are non-existent, and only ever demand equality in the higher paid professions and managerial roles. There's no demands for more women to work in sewer cleansing, and there's no call for the NHS to be representative of the people it treats - its predominantly a female staffed organisation, but no-one is calling for special quotas of men to be introduced.Sobershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11407417389022146963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-62521582305619212822016-07-18T17:57:34.664+01:002016-07-18T17:57:34.664+01:00I teach Criminology, and I've grown accustomed...I teach Criminology, and I've grown accustomed to a 2:1 or 3:1 female:male ratio in my classes. Non-attenders are also more likely to be male than female, by a similar ratio - which means that it's not at all uncommon to look round a classroom and see one male student, or none at all. And this is Criminology - I'm teaching the probation workers and police officers of tomorrow (hopefully). If there is a problem of male self-(non-)selection, it runs far wider than the obvious caring professions.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009879034507926661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8764541874043694159.post-77004909284122793572016-07-18T17:05:46.225+01:002016-07-18T17:05:46.225+01:00Well its a bit of a nature versus nurture question...Well its a bit of a nature versus nurture question , but perhaps the more interesting question is can anything be done about it.<br /><br />First the nature bit which is a bit complicated and relates to how different parts of the brain mature in different genders. Estradiol affects hippocampal cells ,dendritic spines and synapse development and delays synaptic pruning in some regions. The result is that verbal fluency, handwriting and recognizing familiar faces matured several years earlier in girls. Testosterone is associated with myelinogenesis with the result that mechanical reasoning, visual targeting and spatial reasoning appeared to mature four to eight years earlier in boys.<br /><br />When you reach full adulthood though there should be very little difference so in theory if teaching takes account of these and there is a desire to overcome this then this should not be an effect . The trouble is that if you try to teach something that a student is not ready for then they will fail and tend to develop an aversion to that subject or learning method. Over time assessments of ability have changed to favor learning over knowledge , communication over diagramming and prescribed theories over intuitive discussion which affects both genders in some form. On top of this we have parental influences and peer influences where one gender will prefer dolls and another construction toys.<br /><br />It can be overcome as parts of Sweden have proved (the Jokkmokk effect) , but it takes a radical rethink around teaching (some advocate single sex education) parenting (over coming stereotyping) and examination construction.<br /><br />BrickAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com